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Happy Healthy Caregiver Podcast, Episode 166: Healthy, Shame-Free Boundaries with Karen Anderson

Karen C.L. Anderson was the chosen family member to be the legal guardian for her grandmother. This decision surprised Karen because her mother and mom’s siblings were also options. Karen shares her caregiving story and how it has informed her life’s work. She is a master-certified life coach and author helping adult daughters with difficult mothers take care of themselves in that relationship.

In this episode, we go deep into setting healthy boundaries and creating an intentional identity. We discuss when estrangement may be the right option, how to break unhealthy cycles to heal our trauma, and the benefits of kale and Words with Friends.

Scroll to the bottom of this page to see the full-show transcription.

 

Episode Sponsor – Out of Love Book

Out of Love: A Daughter’s Journey with Her Mom to the End is a non-fiction book by international best-selling author, speaker, global community builder and business consultant Lynn Abaté-Johnson. In her book, she shares her raw and real story as a family caregiver to help normalize the tidal wave of emotions we often experience. She also provides practical, everyday logistical resources that can help you be better organized with all that you are juggling. You’ll find a free chapter of Lynn’s book by visiting https://bit.ly/OutOfLoveChapter.

Lynn wants you to know that she sees you, she’s with you, and as her mom always said: Everything will be okay.

 

Listen to the show: Healthy, Shame-Free Boundaries with Karen Anderson

 

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Words of Encouragement

Each episode starts with a few words of inspiration or motivation pulled from the Happy Healthy Caregiver Jar. Create your own jar by downloading the Caregiver  Jar inserts.  Enhance your jar with the Caregiver Jar refill pack.Caregiver Jar Inserts PDF

‘When something goes wrong in your life, just yell – PLOT TWIST and move on.’ #CaregiverJar

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Links & Resources Mentioned

 

 

 

You Are Not Your Mother - Releasing Generational Trauma and Shame

Overcoming Creative Anxiety

Difficult Mothers, Adult Daughters

The Difficult Mother-Daughter Relationship Journal

 

Just for you a daily self care journal book cover

Some of the links on this page are affiliate links. When you click on a product and choose to purchase it, I receive a small thank you from the associated company which helps reimburse me for my blogging, podcast, & site expenses. There is no additional cost to you.

Favorite moments & quotes from the episode

‘Boundaries are your values in action. What do you value? How can I bring that to the table here in support of both of us? You might not like it, but I know it’s for the greater good.’ – Karen Anderson #caregiving #boundaries

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‘The thing with boundaries is that they are always about our behavior…it’s not about controlling the other person.’ – Karen Anderson #familydynamics #boundaries

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‘Shame is the belief that at our core, there’s something wrong with us. Shame is way more than just an emotion; it’s an experience.’ – Karen Anderson  #emotionalselfcare #familycaregiver

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Full Transcription

This is the whole care network helping you tell your story. One podcast at a time content presented in the following podcast is for information purposes, only views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those in the post and guests and may not represent the views and opinions of the whole care network. Always consult with your physician for any medical advice and always consult with your attorney for any legal advice. And thank you for listening to the health care network. But the thing with boundaries is that they are always about our behavior. It’s not about controlling the other person or saying you’re not allowed to do that or say that caring for aging parents or other loved ones while working, raising Children and trying to live your own life, wondering how to find the time for your personal health and happiness. Well, you’re in the right place. Welcome to the Happy Healthy Caregiver podcast. The show where real family caregivers share how to be happy and healthy while caring for others. Now, here’s your host, Family Caregiver and certified Caregiving consultant, Elizabeth Miller. Hello, everyone. Thanks for tuning in to the Happy Healthy Caregiver podcast. Which is part of the whole care network. If this is your first time listening, welcome. This is a show produced biweekly to help family caregivers integrate self care and caregiving into their lives. Each episode has an accompanied show notes page. So if you would like more details about the topics, products and resources we speak about, or you want to see more photos and links of what we talk about. You’ll find the show notes by going onto the website happy healthy caregiver dot com. And underneath the podcast menu, click the image or episode number for today’s show. If you’re listening on your favorite podcast app, the link for the show notes is also in your podcast episodes. Description. Do you have a favorite social media platform? I do. Mine’s Instagram. I like the photos and the videos and I find it easy to use and to tomorrow. My favorite accounts. Happy healthy caregiver consistently post to Instagram on weekdays and I enjoy sharing caregiving and self care tips with the Instagram reels. If you’re on Instagram, I invite you to follow Happy healthy caregiver and save us to your favorites. If you like what you see, consider sharing a post to your story. This helps us connect the podcast and other helpful resources to family caregivers who may not know that we even exist for today’s segment of what I’m reading. I have a 220 to 210 page rule when I’m reading a book because life is too short to read bad books or books that aren’t begging to be picked up. I had a book like this recently. It just wasn’t for me. So I closed it up and set it aside, guilt free on good reads. I’ll mark these as red and I’ll have a bookshelf called, didn’t meet the 221 page rule. I don’t really give stars under three stars because as a writer I know writing is an art and subjective to the audience. So I don’t want to discourage any writing from happening. Audio books. Go into a lull for me. When I’m on vacation. I was like 85% complete on this book that I’m going to share with you. And it was due back to the library through my Libby app. Libby gives you three weeks to read a book and you can renew it, but only if no one is waiting on it. Three weeks is usually enough time for me except I was having too much fun on vacation. So this one went back to the library and left me hanging. I’ve re added it to my whole list to finish it up as I just got to know how it ends. But the book I’m listening to that got taken back to the library is called The House of Eve by Sade Johnson. And it’s considered a daring and redemptive novel set in the 19 fifties in Philly and DC. If you like a strong protagonist, young woman and forbidden love stories. This one is for you. It’s the stories of two young women and it weaves in women’s rights, racial and social equality, challenging social norms, family dynamics, motherhood and the decisions that shape our lives. It got 4.28 stars on good reads and it was chosen as a Reese Witherspoon’s book club pick. So I’ll link to that one in the show notes and my favorite thing this week complements the what I’m reading and it’s called the app. So I talk about Libby a lot. It’s a free app and in order to listen to audio books for free, all you need is a library card. So I am going to be a forever fan of the Libby app because it’s amazing. So you can check your two B red pile and add the books that you want to read to your hold list. You can add up to 10 books on your hold list and they’ll let you, you know when they’re available to borrow. And they’ll also let you know if something’s immediately available to borrow. You got 21 days to listen to the book and then it goes back automatically or you can renew it again. If no one’s on the waitlist, popular books tend to have a waitlist. Sometimes many weeks. I recently recorded two short videos walking you through how to maximize your Libby experience. And I’ll link to both of those in the show notes before we get into today’s caregiver spotlight episode, I want to first shine the light on our episode. Sponsor the Out of Love Book, Out of Love. A daughter’s journey with her mom to the end is a nonfiction book by me, international, best selling author, speaker, global community builder, and business consultant, Lynn Abba Johnson. In my book, I share my raw and real story as a family caregiver to help normalize the tidal wave of emotions we often experience. I also provide practical everyday logistical resources that can help you be better organized with all that you are juggling. You’ll find a free chapter of my book by visiting bit forward slash out of love chapter. That’s bit dot Ly forward slash out of love chapter. I want you to know that I see you. I’m with you. And as my mom always said, everything will be ok. Let’s meet today’s caregiver in the spotlight. Karen Anderson. Karen Cl Anderson was the chosen family member to be the legal guardian for her grandmother. This decision surprised Karen because her mother and mom’s siblings were also options. Karen shares her caregiving story and how it has informed her life’s work. She’s a master certified life coach and author, helping adult daughter with difficult mothers take care of themselves. In that relationship. In this episode, we go deep into setting healthy boundaries and creating an intentional identity. We discuss when estrangement may be the right option how to break unhealthy cycles to heal our trauma and the benefits. Kale and words with friends have in our lives. Enjoy the show. Hi, Karen. Welcome to the Happy Healthy caregiver podcast. Thank you, Elizabeth. I’m happy to be here. Yes. Delighted to chat with you today and get into all things, caregiving and self-care with you. Uh The first thing that we always do though, to kind of kick off the show and get it on a good mantra or words of inspiration, motivation for years. I’ve been kind of collecting things that have spoken to me as a family caregiver and I created a jar for my sister when we transitioned care from my mom to my sister. I just felt like, oh my gosh, this is what a gift I’m giving her so of caregiving. So I wanted to have something that could kind of make sure that she is taking care of herself too. So that’s where this came from. And so people can get the PDF on the website and there’s also like a insert, uh an additional insert because I used to go travel to see her and I would put more little things in her jar. Um And whether you create a jar or a box or whatever. But anyway, let’s get your quote out here today, Karen and see what’s what we got for your episode. It says when something goes wrong in your life. Yeah, just yell plot twist and move on that relatable. Yes, of course. I know there, there’s nothing like normal about a caregiving journey I think. And then we all kind of learn how to be resilient and to, to roll with it. And I know we’re gonna um get into your, your story. So with that, let’s get into your story. Give us share with us a little bit, Karen about your personal caregiving story. So in 2011, I became my grandmother’s legal guardian and that included being a trustee. It included her being her health care con conservator and it included be being her power of attorney, all important things. Yes. Yeah. And at that point, she was um in like her early nineties. Um, and the quick back story is that um, so my grandmother had, well, she’s dead now, but she has three Children. My mom, her, my, my uncle and my aunt. So she, my grandmother had three Children and my mom was the oldest and um my mother and her mother didn’t get along. And over the years there was, you know, a lot of conflict and whatnot. And I think I can’t remember exactly who was the person who was supposed to do all this. But in 103, they, they decide my grandmother’s lawyer decided, you know what I think you need somebody else to do this. Karen. Karen’s our person. And yeah, and so, um I was the, I’m the, I was my grandmother’s oldest grandchild and I lived the closest I lived at the time I lived about an hour and a half away from her. But, um, so, yeah, that it fell to me and, um, about how old were you at this time? Like, so I am 60 now. So I was like, how long ago was that? 2000? So, an adult though. Not late forties. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Early fifties, whatever it was. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t do the math quickly. And what’s interesting about that? Right is that I remember one of the things that I was most concerned about was, like, all of a sudden I’m sort of responsible for financial stuff, like big financial stuff, you know, and making decisions and, and, and whatnot. So, anyway, I think you and I have a lot in common is that I would say I’m a word, words, person, not a numbers person. Exactly. And I, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I think it’s just like we know where our strengths are. Right. Yeah. So, yeah. So that’s what happened in 2011. Um, you know, and, and at that point my grandmother was fairly with it and, you know, fairly good physically. Um, she was starting to have some dementia and she was obviously in her nineties. Right. And was starting to become frail but she didn’t have any major health issues and it was, um, gosh, I don’t know, maybe it wasn’t quite a year later, it was probably more like six months after I became her legal guardian. Um, she fell in the home, in her home because she was living in her, in her own home at that point. And that’s when, like, everything had to sort of go into high gear and falls are just like, there’s a lot of people start to a caregiving journey. You’re not alone there. So I’ll put some fall present tips actually in the show notes for people. Yeah, I mean, she was living alone and she had a two story home, believe it or not. And um can I swear on this podcast? Yeah, we can always mark it because I just, I wanted to share. So when she fell miraculously, she didn’t break any bones, but she did um like do a lot of damage to her skin and like elderly skin is, you know, very fragile. And that was the cause of most of the problem that because she ended up in the IC U and you know, had a bunch of a bunch of issues that way. But what happened was um she, she was downstairs in her house and she had a commode um in like a small little office room downstairs and she had gone to the bathroom in the commode and then was taking the commode to the bathroom to dump, dump it and it spilled and she said I slept in my own shit. Oh you can’t make this shit up. No interesting though. That she went in the bedside commode is what I call those things. A portable commode and then she would dumped it herself. Yeah. And the other one, I just, why not just go to the bathroom, I guess, like, I’m sure she was thinking, was thinking the same thing. Well, I think, I think the commode, I think it was easier for her to sit on the commode the toilet got it. Um, because she was a, she was very fiercely independent and, and this sort of plays into that as well because what happened was even though she had a medical alert, um, pendant, she didn’t use it because I think she knew I didn’t wear it. She, I don’t even know if she, I think she was wearing it but she did, she refused to, like, push the button and she was there for a good 24 hours before she finally was like, ok, push the button, push the button. What is it? I, I know she’s not alone there either. I mean, at least she wore it and had access to it. Like some won’t even wear them. And now there’s some beautiful, um, jewelry even that camouflages life alerts. Like I, um, I, I’ll put some of those in there too because I know this is a big issue for people. Uh, I’ll post it in the show notes because there’s a stigma right about about wearing it. But, ok, so keep going. Let’s, so you become your, your grandma’s caregiver. You’re her legal guardian. Um, that, and, and you’re the person they chose because mom and she had a strained relationship and at that point, my mother and I also were estranged. Mm. You know what the common denominator here is. Yeah. Uh, and I had estranged myself from my mom at the end of 2010. Ok. And, um, and so it was interesting because as, as my mother’s legal, my grandmother’s legal guardian, I was required by law to be in contact with my grandmother’s heirs, her three Children. I was an heir. I was, you know, I was the legal person. But, um, and so that, so at that point, then I would send, um, my mom and her siblings, um, monthly updates or whatever, you know, the things that I was required required to send. Um, and just a little side note, I, I believe that when I became my mother, my grandmother’s legal guardian, I think that put a deeper wedge between my mother and me, which it was already there. But I think that just sort of pushed, pushed it a little bit more. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it’s a lot of times when we talk about a lot of difficult caregiving stuff on this show. But I think it’s important to also note that sometimes there’s all these other family dynamics that are playing into the picture and not everybody is nice to work with, you know. Um, and, you know, I’m, I’m sorry that you did not have the storybook with your mom. You know, I, I, you know, I, I, it is, it is my life’s work at this point. And, um, you know, the, the caregiving aspect of, for my grandmother played a role in it, but it was not the big story. It wasn’t the main story. And, um, yes, I didn’t have a fairy tale. I didn’t, you know, my mom and I do not have a Hallmark relationship and, and for what it’s worth, she is still alive and we do have a relationship now. I mean, we had a relationship even when we were estranged. But, um, uh you know, there, I’ve done a lot of work and we’re gonna talk about some of the boundaries and, and things that you have, have set was let before we head on to that though. Was grandma easy to care for? Was she easy to work with? Um, no. Um And so I kind of went into it blindly. Uh, you know, not knowing a lot of aspects about my grandmother, but also, you know, the stories that I had about my grandmother were, you know, my own experience of her. But also the stories that came through my mother’s filter about my grandmother. And I, to be honest, I was, I was afraid of my grandmother. She was not a cuddly warm, maternal type of person. Um, I mean, and to be honest, I don’t think my grandmother ever really wanted to have Children and I don’t think my mom did and I ended up not having them. So, um, again, not a, not a blame on them but, you know, just sort of a, a commentary on the lack of women’s choices, especially back then. Um, but yeah, my grandmother was a difficult person as well. And the thing that was interesting, I think that made it easier on some level is the fact that I wasn’t her daughter. And I know that, you know, there’s when it’s the, when it’s the direct, more direct relationship between a mother and daughter, I think the caregiving thing is more difficult if there’s already difficulties there. So having that separation or that, you know, generational, you know, we weren’t, you know what I’m trying to say? Yeah, made it easier and I found myself learning how to have difficult conversations with her in a way that I, I like. It was like, oh, wow, look at me growing up here growing up in your forties and fifties. And it is. So, so give us some examples on that because I’m sure, you know, people could be tuning into the show, likely they’re seeing the topic and they’re like, OK, I deal with somebody that’s, you know, difficult, um estranged trauma, whatever stuff. What, what were some of those like looking back on some of those learnings and those strategies that work for you. What was something that you could kind of pull out as a nugget? Well, I, um, as I said, she had mo by the time she died, she had moderate dementia, but it wasn’t terrible. And so we could have conversations. Um, and, and just for, for what it’s worth, she died in 2015 in October of 2015, she was, had just turned 98 at that point. So, so we’re talking, you know, the bulk of this was like about three years from 2012 through 2015. Um and in the beginning, she was very angry about the fact. So I, as I said, said the story, she fell, she ended up in the IC U, she had to go to rehab. And at that point, I knew it was like, OK, she’s now gonna go into a care home because this is what we’ve been wanting, but she was refusing and, and now you have facts like you have, this isn’t possible for you to live in an Asian place anymore, right? And, but, but I couldn’t make her at that point, right? And in, in, in conversations with professionals, you know, they were saying that um even though you’re her health care conservator, you cannot make her until she reaches a certain point that is um deemed, you know, and safe, unsafe. And, and so I remember having someone come in at a certain point to, like, sort of interview her and like, and they, they weren’t willing at that point this and this was before, obviously before she fell to say, yep, she has to go. So anyway, she falls sadly. You have to wait. Right. And, like, you have to wait till a bad thing happens until, to get this. And I think it is because of her. She wouldn’t, she didn’t want to leave. Yes. So if somebody’s in a similar situation, I think where you start with your calls is, um, the area agency on aging could probably point you in the right direction. They might have somebody come out from adult Protective Services or some pla some organization to kind of make to see what the situation is. And I think the important thing as a caregiver because I’ve been through this with my cousin. Actually, she was with her parents and we needed something to happen with her mom to get more to get be somewhere and she was tempted to clean up after her mom and make it look better. And I just wanna say, don’t do that. Like they need to see what it really looks like. Yeah. And I remember as I, as I said, I mean, she was fiercely independent, um, her neighbors, you know, I think were concerned and, you know, my, even my mom and before I was, um, estranged from my mom. You know, people would call her and my mom lived even farther away than, than I do for my grandmother. But there was always sort of this, well, what if she falls? What if this happens? What if that happens? And I remember saying at a certain point, well, then she falls and then we deal with it. You know, and I, I think that that sort of speaks to one of the main points that I think most people are concerned about or worried about is that they’re gonna feel guilty if they don’t prevent the bad thing from happening. Yeah. And a lot of bad things can happen and people can be unhappy and so much is out of their control and, and sadly, people do should, should, they should all over you about the things that you should be doing, but we can’t be there all the time. Right. And, and my grandma, my grandmother wanted me to come live with her and I’m like, yeah, that’s not gonna happen either. And I did have, um, prior to her fall, I did have, you know, home instead or I can’t remember the name. I think it was called home instead. Um, people coming and doing groceries and whatnot. But she, she was, um, mean to them and they would quit. And I, again, I imagined like the thing that’s interesting about my grandmother is that she ended up having a lot of money because she, my, my grandparents got divorced in the eighties and, um, she never remarried but she had a, a very, very wealthy boyfriend who left all of his money to her when he died. So, go, grandma, go grandma, talk, talk a little Karen. Like, I mean, I’m, I’ve got a friend of mine right now. Her mom’s laying on the guilt. She lives independently. She’s, you know, needs more help. You know, they’ve gotten somebody coming, um, I think five days a week and then the daughter or the adult daughter staying two days a week, but it’s never enough, right? The, the mom or in this case, your grandma, like she, they always want more and yet you have a right to like, live your own life but how you’ve had these difficult conversations how and now she doesn’t even want the help that’s, that you’re organizing to get there. Like, how did you resolve that? Like, what are the conversations? What do they look like? Well, you know, I don’t, it’s terrible to say, I don’t really remember. Um, I think I just let me put it this way. What I do remember at some point was learning how to have conversations that went something like, well, we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it and I understand that that’s what you want, period. You know, and not over explaining or justifying or, you know, explaining or defending. There’s a great quote. One of my favorite quotes is from a woman named Lisa Nichols. And it said it’s something like this. Freedom is or no, no, it starts like this. It goes, I don’t defend. I don’t hide. I don’t explain and I don’t, what’s the other one? I don’t remember the other one, but it’s like freedom is. Yeah. And you deserve to have that like you deserve to live your life. Your grandma’s already lived this stage of her life. You’ve deserve to live your stage of your life. You had shared something with me in our, in our preparation that will sit, sit with me probably forever. Frankly, you said you can tell the truth in a kind way and it’s not kind if your kindness doesn’t include you. So expand on that a little bit and, and how did you get there? It’s like this so many times women especially put themselves into situations that make them feel bitter, angry, resentful, regretful, whatever, right? Guilty, all the things we hate and we do that in the name of love or caring or support. But when we feel bitter, angry and resentful, that’s what we get to feel. It doesn’t feel like love, it doesn’t feel like kindness. And the, you know, even if you have a great relationship with the person that you’re caring for, you know, you can still end up feeling resentful and, and when you do that, that’s what that person experiences. They’re not experiencing your love or your kindness they’re experiencing your resentment, even if you’re like, trying to hide it. You know, so it’s the energy with which we do things and if I’m not being kind to myself or if, you know, if a caregiver is not being kind to themselves and, you know, I know as like on the surface, what does that look like or what does that mean? But I think it probably means different things for different people. But I know that when I show up in that situation I don’t wanna be bitter and angry for, for my sake. Now I’m not saying that anger isn’t ever appropriate. Anger is absolutely appropriate. Sometimes it’s not about like, oh, those are bad feelings. We shouldn’t have them. Right. But, um, yeah, like, what is the, what is the, like the, um, one of the quotes I like is, um, boundaries are your values in action? Yeah, I love that. Right. It’s like, what do you value? How can I bring that to the table here in support of both of us? It’s a partnership. It’s a partner. You might not like it, but I know that it’s in a greater good and you not liking it. The person that you’re caring for, not liking it isn’t harming them, them not liking it isn’t harm, right. We’re doing a lot of things we don’t like too, by the way. So, like, it’s, it’s a partnership like you, you are, it’s a negotiation. What are some examples of some healthy boundaries that you set, you know, with your mom, with your grandma, like during, you know, during the space and even now, um it’s funny, I don’t think I really had boundaries with my grand and of course I had boundaries with her, but it was very different and that was a long time ago. Um My boundary setting game is different now than it was then. Um But with my mom, the boundaries are, you know, there, we don’t talk about certain things. Um, and, and over time she has learned this and what do you say if she starts to bring those up? Um No, I’m not talking about that. Um It’s a complete sentence, it’s a sentence and it took me a long time to get there. Um Sometimes it’s a matter like, I think this is probably a dynamic your listeners can, can relate to, right? And it’s the gossiping about other family members and this was a, a boundary. I learned long, like before I was even estranged from my mom because she would bring up family members that she didn’t like. And, um, you know, and then she knew maybe that I was in touch with them or whatever and well, how so and so fine, I fine period. And before that, before I learned this, I would, you know, I would say whatever it was and I would come off those calls feeling icky and like, you know, but the thing with boundaries is that they are always about our behavior. The other person, like you cannot stop the person from talking about the thing or asking the questions that you don’t wanna answer. So then it’s incumbent on you to honor that and to know what you’re gonna do, it’s not about controlling the other person or saying you’re not allowed to do that or say that. Right. That’s a good point. Uh My mom used to have something. My mom is a lovely person. May had a little twinge of narcissism. Um But she would have her greatest hits album. I called it and it was like track one, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I would listen to this Greatest Hits album for a long time until I made a decision that I didn’t have to listen to The Greatest Hits. Um And I, you know, I would make up funny things and call them that because that just made the whole caregiving thing more fun. But I, yeah, we can walk away, we can say no, we can say, you know, and my thing was like she would rehash the past over and over again. Should have, would have, could have blah, blah, blah. So it is, it’s out of our control. So she might start going and hit and track one or six or whatever, but I didn’t have to listen to it. Yeah, I mean, the other boundaries that I have like with my mom right now and this has been for a couple of years now. Is we talk every two weeks and that’s it. And I, you know, I think for some people, um you know, their mothers are needy. My mom is not needy. Um And in fact, I think maybe every two weeks is too much for her. I’m not sure. But um but when it come, when it was, when it came to my grandmom grandmother, the boundaries that I had with my mom and her siblings, but more so with my mom than with my siblings, her siblings was um that my communication, that official communication that I was required to do. Um you know, like I, this wasn’t gonna be by committee. I was the one in charge and I had to own that because, you know, they’re all older than I am. They are my elders, right? Um My aunt and my uncle respected that my mother didn’t um consistent, which is also my favorite word. People are consistent. They’re not gonna change. Yeah. And so, you know, I would have to maintain boundaries around um that communication and, you know, the decisions that I was making were mine and mine alone and it wasn’t going to be by committee. But I remember there’s a very um uh there a moment that had to do with this whole situation that was very compelling for me and it was, it pretty much was, it’s kind of what tipped it over for me into being like, oh, you know what, this is my work personally, but also collectively. And it was the moment that my mom emailed me asking me a question about my grandmother’s trust and how much money was being spent. I don’t remember the exact question and I didn’t have an answer and I knew that I was gonna have to ask somebody, you know, in the powers that be up to get the answer. And I didn’t answer my mom right away. And before I got back to her, she sent me another email and she said, how come you haven’t answered me? And of course, I’m I’m adding tone here where it was an email. So I don’t know what the tone was but my, the words had escalated. I perceived this tone like how come you haven’t answered me yet? What do you have to ask somebody? And I lost it. I lost it. Not to her, but in my, in my own little space, I was like, like shaming you for not knowing the yeah, not, not owning your role enough or not, not knowing the answer right off the top of my head, which she knows you’re achilles’ Heel. That, I mean, that’s the thing about mamas and family members, but here’s what was, why it was such a turning point for me. Was it, it I had in, you know, internally I had what I now call the um fury devastation, shame cycle which was, you know, my mom asks me this question immediately or, you know, then sends this follow up email and immediately I am filled with rage like, like I am talking rage and then feeling devastated because the anger that I have is feels impotent and then shame. And it’s partly why I wrote my book. I mean, yeah, the, the current book because you’ve got multiple books. Yes, you are not your mother. Hold it up again. If you wanna see it, you are not your mother releasing generational trauma and shame. Shame is the big part of the book. But in that moment, I, what I realized is that I had so much shame in me and that my mom like because of what I was believing about myself and because of what I thought my mom believed about me, which is that I’m basically a pathetic loser who can’t, doesn’t have answers off the top of her head, right? And, and that cycle would repeat itself over and over and over again. It repeated itself in my life. I mean, ever since I was a child, so being able to identify those kinds of things when we’re dealing in these kinds of situations, right? Like, oh, look what I am making this mean. Can I blame my mom for it kind of right? But I’m not. But she again, she’s consistent, it’s gonna happen. So you’re recognizing that there’s a pattern and then you’re kind of seeing and then when she recognizes a pattern, then you can do something about it about it. But I have a question first, Karen. So like one of the things that sometimes gets confusing for me is I get twisted in my head is the difference in the feeling of guilt and the feeling of shame. How do you distinguish those two? So, shame is the belief that at our core, there is something wrong with us. We are inherently flawed. Um And it’s a deep, it’s an experience. I, I to me, shame is way more than just an emotion. It is an experience and it is made up of sensations in our bodies, actual posture like crumple. Um It’s shame is physiologically hardwired into us. I talk a lot about this in the book. Um But, and, and I think at one time, like uh many thousands of years ago, we needed shame like we needed an appendix, but now we don’t need them. Whereas guilt is rather than I am inherently flawed. It’s, oh, wow, I’ve done something that’s not in alignment with what I value. Um You know, I’ve, I’ve made a mistake. There’s no coming back from an unquestioned belief that you are inherently bad and wrong and flawed right there is you can come back from, oh, wow. I’ve made a mistake. I’ve, I’ve done something that’s out of integrity with me and sometimes guilt is just we’re stretched. So thin and, and we need grace like it, it, it’s, it’s, yes, we have those feelings because we want to be that person or do that for this, all these individuals. But there’s limited capacity sometimes. So the guilt is going to creep up sometimes. And yet we also have to give ourselves some grace, I think. Like it, it can be good and it was tough. Yeah. Yeah, I, I, there’s, are, are you familiar with Dr Gabor mate? No, he is a, a physician in Canada who has become very well known for his work about around addiction and trauma. But he has a great quote that goes like this. If you have a choice between feeling guilt and resentment, choose guilt every time because like what we were saying before like that resentment like that eats at us that like the bit that that is, is, you know, it’s like it, it, it’s like we kind of end up having to stoke it to keep it alive, right? We don’t want the guilt. It’s like easier to feel resentment, but it’s also more corrosive. Whereas guilt if we know how to have grace, right? Like you can come back from that. Yeah, like his negative emotions to your point earlier are gonna, are gonna come up um you know, back to shame you had said or I saw in one of your recent Instagram posts. It was a quote from Anne Boscap. We got a lot of quotes today. I love it. Shame dies when stories are told in safe places. And I hope that this, you know, podcast is frankly a representation of how people can tell those stories in a safe place and hear those stories, you know, and, and resonate, have them resonate with them and hopefully it prompts them to live their life differently and to notice the fear devastation, shame cycle that you mentioned and that you, they have a wonderful resource like yours to kind of help them figure out how to break that cycle. Yeah. Shame is debilitating. I’ve, I’ve lived with shame my whole life. I still experience shame. And it, it’s funny, I, I mentioned to you before we started recording, I had a book event last night and I spent a lot of yesterday feeling shame and I’m like, I gotta use my own tools. Yes. Yes. And that, that, that’s human. Like we’re all a work in progress. Like, you know, sometimes people will say to me, oh, you’re the happy, healthy caregiver. I’m like, no, this is the beacon people like I don’t call myself this, I’m just, you know, a work in progress like the rest of the world that’s has the, you know, begin with the end in mind and, and let’s let’s continually improve to try to get there and while we’re trying to get there, maybe we can pull along a few other people because we feel like this is, you know, a, a healthy journey to get on. Um, you know, kind of going back to some of the boundary stuff too. Like when did, when did you know, or in your opinion, when could it be the right time for someone to consider estranging from a family member? Well, first I wanna say, I think it’s incumbent or it would, it’s helpful. Let me put it that way and maybe in is incumbent the right word. It’s like our responsibility. I think now that we have and so many more people are talking about trauma and what and how our nervous systems are and how they work and why they work the way they work and how they work to protect us from threat, threats, perceived or otherwise. Right? Um And I just lost my train of thought. What was the question about? When would, you know, is the right to change it? So, understanding the nerve, understanding your nervous system and how you respond to threats is very helpful. And I think that estrangement happens when you are overwhelmed when your system is overwhelmed and cannot handle the relationship. It’s too much for your system to handle. Now, let’s talk about guilt and shame, right? Like, but the the thing that I’ve learned over the past few years that has been so helpful to me is to understand that our nervous systems when they perceive a threat again, it might just be a perception, it might not actually be like a lion at the door, but that’s important to pay attention to and there’s something going on there and trying to override it or trying to say that’s stupid or that’s ridiculous. Or I shouldn’t feel that way isn’t gonna help. It’s not gonna help you have capacity in your system to now be with somebody who triggers you. And the fact of the matter is that mothers and daughters, I just actually wrote a newsletter piece about this. I’m gonna put it up on my blog. I’m also gonna do a podcast about it. We trigger each other. We perceive threats and I’m talking about like, you’re not thinking it, you’re not thinking, oh, she said that and I feel threatened. It’s happening on a subconscious bodily level. And what happens? I think with the vast majority of us who do estrange ourselves is that we can no longer our systems can’t handle it. Yeah. II I, when you’re talking, I’m thinking of this analogy of like, you know, you’re driving at a fast speed and you’re trying to make changes in your life and your systems and if you’re constantly in motion and doing that and living that life and it keeps coming at you, like sometimes you just gotta pull over, right? So estrangement is kind of like let’s pull over and get ourselves in a healthy spot. Yeah, it’s like, I think, I mean, when I estranged myself from my mom, I thought at the time that it was forever and I didn’t know, you know, what was gonna happen in the future. Um, and I, I, you know, I never, with, in my work, I never encourage anyone to estrange themselves. But if that is, if that is what feels like the right decision for them, I help them do it in a way that’s healthy and, and with the understanding that it might not be forever for some people, it is absolutely the right choice that it be forever. And you know, in those cases, it’s, you know, when they’re, and I don’t even want to put like this is the definition and, and you know, if you don’t fit this definition, then you’re wrong for doing it. But, you know, if there’s been significant abuse and the person is unrepentant and doesn’t respect you and is never gonna respect you is never going to be open to having a vulnerable conversation with you. You know, that that could, you know, that, that to me is like, consider, you know, consider that and consider also that if you do work on yourself and again, not to fix yourself, this isn’t about you’ve got to change and become a better person. But what I, what I’ve noticed for myself is that over time and the work that I’ve done, I have more capacity in my system to be with my mother, some people would say she doesn’t deserve it, right? But it’s a personal choice that I’ve made for my own growth. There’s been times where I’ve thought, you know, what? Maybe not. Well, if anything, Karen, you’re getting fabulous content to, you know, by, by having this, by being tested and, and that will help other and that will help other people, right? Like, so talk a little bit about your work. You, you, you, you kind of use the, the word loosely. I know you do some coaching sessions. I love that. You call them the Mother Lode concept console Lod Mother Lode. Um What usually transpires in these and what, what is your work about? So it’s about creating three things, safety, which is kind of what we’ve just been talking about, right? How can we be safe people for ourselves and for those around us, which also sort of speaks to what I was saying earlier, right? Do I want, what is the energy with which I want to show up in this relationship if it’s fear, you know, if, if it’s unconsciously fear and shame, that’s what people are gonna experience, right? Um So how do we become safe with ourselves so that we can be safe with others? And again, that’s not like you’re an unsafe person, but I, I mean, I would say that there has been many times in my life where I’ve been an unsafe person for myself, right? Um So creating safety, creating what I call an intentional identity, which again, doesn’t mean you got to change who you are. Like, it’s more about stripping away the stuff that gets in the way of you being really who you want to be. And when it comes to a difficult relationship with like a parent or a sibling, I’m, it’s, I mean, it probably can work in a, um, romantic relationship, but again, that’s not really my real house, but it’s like, who do I want to be when I show up in the relationship with my mom and I work people, I um help people work through creating this intentional identity. And you know, some people give it a name. I, I call mine fierce love. And there are three pillars that uphold that identity. And those um three pillars, my three pillars are dignity, expression and audacity. And each of them has a felt sense and each of them has little memories or stories or thoughts associated with them. And I, I have it written down on a piece of paper. All I have to do is look at it and I’m reminded, one of my um uh one of my um little sentences for audacity is I was made for this. And when I say that right, I have a full body experience. You can see it like if those are watching the youtube like it’s like, yeah, it’s like this mirror moments I was made for this, you know, and it’s like you believe it in your core. Yeah. And um, and so it’s helping someone create this for themselves so that they have that resource and it’s us, it’s, it’s based on taking them through their memories of things that happened in their life that they really enjoyed and then being able to look back on those memories and see what did I, or, you know, ask themselves, what did I see in myself that I really appreciate or what did I see in myself? That was really amazing to me or courageous or, you know, whatever the thing is and that’s, that’s what’s so beautiful about it. It’s not like, oh, I have to come up with some mantra that I don’t believe, right? It’s like I already have it in me. It’s a resource that exists within me that I can lean on and count on so that when I’m with my mother or whoever, right? And again, it’s not perfect. Yeah, but it’s a different perspective on your past. Like it’s a lived experience and you have kind of had one narration of that, that you were kind of backing up and shining a different perspective on that. And that’s how it’s clear that you have done a lot of work and that you would be very effective and helping other people, you know, figure, reframe this. Yeah. And then the, the final piece is so that creating safety, creating this intentional identity and creating healthy boundaries and, and the, the intentional identity work flows, right? Into the boundaries piece. I love that. We’re gonna link to the books and you also have a, you have a podcast. What’s your podcast called? Tell us a little bit about that. It’s called Dear Adult Daughter. And it is very short. Like the longest one I think might be 20 minutes. But they’re mostly like anywhere from like a minute to 10 minutes. That’s lovely. I wish I could make mine shorter. I get so wrapped up in the conversations with people and I was like, but wait, there’s we have but you know, people can take what they want and leave, leave the rest. Your recent episode was about that as we’re talking self forgiveness. You know, what, what are your, some of your tips on self forgiveness? My recent episode was on self forgiveness. I thought that’s what I thought it was about. Yeah, self forgiveness or forgiveness. Uh I don’t think it was. Oh, ok. I might have a minute. Maybe I looked at the wrong one. Let me look really quick. Sorry. No worries. I’m like, uh and I know sometimes we call our like it’s hard to put a topic on the whole. It was about forgiving. Ok. It was about forgiving. It was about why it might be harder for us to forgive our mothers than it is to forgive our fathers. Interesting. Yes. And then it’s again, I know that that’s not across the board but you know, myself and a lot of women that I’ve talked to lately have said have been sort of talking about, like, why can’t I forgive my mom? But like my dad who wasn’t perfect and did some shitty things, like, why is it easy to forgive him? Yeah. So that’s what I talk about. Oh, well, that’s a good one. So we’ll, we’ll link to dear adult daughter in there. Um, well, Karen, I could keep talking to you too, but we’re gonna, people, we’re gonna share all the resources of where they can get a hold of you. They can get your book. You have more than one book, but your um most recent one is you are not your mother and will link to the uh the other ones there. I have written a journal and I know you’re a writer. Um It’s called Just For You a daily self-care journal again, trying with intention, trying to make it intentional for people to rewire themselves and think about themselves, particularly as caregivers have written with caregivers in mind, but not specifically for caregivers. So it’s a prompted journal because some people have a fear of what journaling is all about. And so this gives you something to kind of start with, write a sentence, write a whole paragraph, whatever you want. So, um oh, this is a good one for you, Karen. I’ve got, I’ve just pulled out some questions. The first one says, do you feel like you are enough? Why or why not? You want me to answer? Yeah. Right. The second I do. OK. Good today. Not so much. And when you feel like you aren’t enough, like, what is your strategy there? Like? Do you have that intentional con my intentional identity? And I remind myself, I, I look at it, all I have to do is look at it and there are a bunch of stories come to mind and I’m like, oh, yes, that’s who I am. Yes. That’s your character Karen. Um, identity profile. I love that. Um, what’s your latest, uh, quick and healthy meal, quick and healthy meal, quick and healthy meal? Well, we’ve got a lot of kale growing in our garden and I know kale is one of those things. Either love it or hate it. I love it. And there’s a great kale salad. It’s not my recipe, but it’s very simple. You take the kale, you chop it into like ribbons, um, and you massage it with the olive oil you put in lemon juice, cheese of your choice. Like grated, um, raisins or currants or cram, you know, dried cranberries and, um, pumpkin seeds, toasted, pumpkin seeds. Yum. Just in time for ball. It sounds yummy. I’m a situational kale person, but there’s a, a chick-fil-a. Do you have chick-fil-a where you are? No. Ok. Well, they have a side kale. This is a hack that I I’ve been doing recently. Is they have a side kale salad. With like a light dressing on it and some of those things and then I buy their grilled chicken nuggets and their buffalo sauce and I mix it all together for like a quick meal on the go. So, and I just got hungry. Um, no, that sounds good. Talking about that. Well, that’s a good one. what do you, what kind of, you know, you talked about how your grandma had some cognitive impairment. What kind of mental activities do you enjoy that? Help keep your mind sharp. So, I am a avid words with friends. Oh, let’s play Karen. I’m on words with friends. I’m very, um, I’m, I’m pretty ruthless but I’m also, I had joined the, I’m a fan and Connections on the New York Times. They have another game called Connections. And I love, um, another game called Waffle, which it’s all word games. Yeah, we’re word people. We’ve already, we’ve already determined this, um, my son got me addicted to words with friends during the pandemic. I played years ago and then forgot about it and then he’s, like, play with me and I played with him and, well, he’s now got, like, gone off to do his own whatever he’s up to. He’s, um, 21 and my husband and I are now playing sometimes we play each other, like sitting in bed, like we’re just singing the words with friends back and forth. Um, but it is, I, it’s intellectual self-care we need that. Like, it helps to keep your, your mind. I mean, it’s just, it’s like I, I like, really look forward to it. It’s like I get to play. Yeah. Yeah. That’s what self-care looks like, real, you know, intentional things that we can do that bring us joy and all of that. So, uh well, I love that and I have really, is there anything else that you were like, we cannot wrap up this call today until we say this? Um Or do you think we’ve done a good job of kind of encapsulating? I mean, there, I had a lot of stories about my grandmother that I, I, you know, could have told. Um because she, I think the thing I wanted to say is that over that period of time, my fear started to go away and I was able to start having sort of like this intentional relationship with her that was very satisfying. Yeah. You know, it’s caregiving is not all bad, right? We learn, we learn a lot about ourselves in the process. We, we get these moments with these care recipients that maybe would never have occurred. Had they not like I wouldn’t trade it for the world. Was it the toughest season I’ve lived in my life? Absolutely. Some, I’ll just, I’ll say some of the stories I I share in this book. So OK. Good. Yeah. Good. And the book is not, you know, for those who are just listening. It’s, it’s not a, it’s not a huge one. It’s, it’s a, it’s a doable. It’s, yeah, it’s a, it’s in the feedback I’ve got is that the first part especially is fairly intense. Um, because I tell some personal stories that are not pretty. Um, but overall it’s a very hopeful and um healing book. Awesome. Well, we need more of that to help with this trauma and the generational stuff and I, you know, I’m not glad this happened to you, but I’m glad that I, that you exist, Karen in the world to help other people. Um fast track through some really tough spots in their life. So thank you for the work that you do to do to you. I mean, here we are right there we are. How do people stay in touch with you? Like what’s the best way to, to go to my website KCL Anderson dot com? Um I am most active on Facebook. Um And, and you know, it’s everything, everything, all of my social, everything is KCL Anderson. That’s how you can find me. Wonderful. Well, check her out people. Thank you, Karen for coming on the show. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining us today on the Happy Healthy Caregiver Podcast on the whole care network. As always, show notes that a company today’s episode can be found on my website Happy Healthy caregiver dot com. Just look under the podcast menu for today’s episode image and that will take you to the page with the links and information we spoke about today. You’ll also find other resources on the website along with links to purchase the Just for you daily self care journal. When you purchase from my website, you’ll get a signed copy and for a limited time free shipping. If you’ve enjoyed what you heard today, consider subscribing to the show on your podcast platform. It really helps other family caregivers find the podcast and you’ll automatically receive our biweekly shows in your podcast listening queue. Maybe while you’re subscribing, consider leaving a five star rating and review or just simply talk it up on your social channels. Let’s stay connected. I’m on Instagram and Facebook as Happy healthy caregiver. And until we meet again, please take care of you. 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