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Happy Healthy Caregiver Podcast, Episode 165: Unpacking Family Expectations with Lynn Abaté-Johnson

Lynn Abaté-Johnson understands the typhoon of emotions and responsibilities that come with caring for a loved one. For over six years, Lynn was the primary caregiver for her mother. Lynn says she discovered how to blossom through (and after) caregiving rather than let it drown her. Now she helps other family caregivers by giving them the emotional and logistical support they need.

In this episode, Lynn and I chat about grief relief, matriarchy expectations, unexpected respite, and online journals to help streamline communication surrounding a health journey.

Scroll to the bottom of this page to see the full-show transcription.

 

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Words of Encouragement

Each episode starts with a few words of inspiration or motivation pulled from the Happy Healthy Caregiver Jar. Create your own jar by downloading the Caregiver  Jar inserts.  Enhance your jar with the Caregiver Jar refill pack.Caregiver Jar Inserts PDF

‘Difficult Roads often lead to beautiful destinations.’ #CaregiverJar

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Links & Resources Mentioned

 

Americanah, A Novel by Chimamanda Ngoi Adichie

 

 

Out of Love - A Daughter’s Journey With Her Mom To The End

Heather Zoccali - Caregiver Spotlight

Happy Healthy Caregiver Podcast, Episode 155: Everything You Want To Know About Hospice with Barbara Karnes

 

Just for you a daily self care journal book cover

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Favorite moments & quotes from the episode

‘I think that the more trauma and drama that happens in our world, in our lives, the more we start to realize  really what’s important and how to focus on those morsels, those gems, of beauty.’ – @LAJbiz #caregiving #familyroles

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‘Finding the humor and finding the levity in very dire circumstances is a key for us as human beings to not only function every day but also become more and more connected.’ – @LAJbiz #matriarchy #familydynamics

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‘Here’s the thing about expectations that I’ve discovered: they’re heavy. They have us carrying a lot of weight that is really not necessarily ours to carry.’ – @LAJbiz  #familyroles #familycaregiver

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Full Transcription

 

This is the whole care network helping you tell your story. One podcast at a time content presented in the following podcast is for information purposes, only views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those in the post and guests and may not represent the views and opinions of the whole care network. Always consult with your physician for any medical advice and always consult with your attorney for any legal advice. And thank you for listening to the health care network. I think that um and this is my opinion only. I think that there may be some dysfunction in those old paradigms of matriarchy, caring for aging parents or other loved ones while working, raising Children and trying to live your own life, wondering how to find the time for your personal health and happiness. Well, you’re in the right place. Welcome to the Happy Healthy Caregiver podcast to show where real family caregivers share how to be happy and healthy while caring for others. Now, here’s your host, Family Caregiver and Certified Caregiving consultant, Elizabeth Miller. Hello, everyone. Thanks for tuning in to the Happy Healthy Caregiver podcast, which is part of the whole care network. If this is your first time listening, welcome. This is a show produced by weekly to help family caregivers integrate self care and caregiving into their lives. Each episode has an accompanied show notes page. So if you’d like more details about the topics, the products and the resources we speak about, or you just want to see more photos of our guests. You will find the show notes by going on the website happy healthy caregiver dot com and click the podcast menu and the image or episode number for today’s show. The link is also going to be shared in your podcast platform. Episodes, description. Do you have a favorite social media platform? I do. Mine’s Instagram. I love the photos and the videos and I can find it that it’s easy to use and I can mark all my favorite accounts. I want to keep up with well, happy healthy caregiver, consistent post to Instagram on weekdays. And I enjoy sharing caregiving and self care tips with the Instagram reels. If you’re on Instagram, I invite you to follow happy healthy caregiver and save us to your favorites. If you like what you see, consider sharing a post to your story. This helps us connect the podcast and other helpful resources to family caregivers who may not yet know about us for today’s segment of what I’m reading. I am reading a book called in paperback by Chimamanda Nego A DJ. My neighbor Jeannette loaned me this book and I’m so glad that she did. It’s a fiction book about a Nigerian woman and a blogger named Ilo who struggles with love, race and identity in her home country of Nigeria. She never really felt race as a child until she came to America. She left Nigeria because she was frustrated with the strikes in their education system. She came to America full of optimism and confidence and the first obstacle she encountered is finding employment and paying rent milo blogs about what it’s like to be a non-american black woman and the loneliness and long for the familiar and her posts are incorporated into the book. Her Love Life is also impacted by post 200 103 restrictions and some of the regretful decisions she made while she was in a tough spot. It actually reads kind of like a memoir and I’m almost even wondering how much of the author’s life is woven into the pages. I’m halfway into this so I can’t give you a star rating yet. I can tell you however, that I want to pick the book up and read it. And it’s making me question some of my unconscious bias. This episode’s favorite thing. This is going to be a little unusual, but I am going to share my passion about lazy Susans. I don’t know who came up with this name, by the way. My sister Susan is anything but lazy, but I do love this organizational tool that helps us keep all of our objects tidy. I use them in my pantry corners. My spice caps my refrigerator under my sinks. They are just the best use of functional space. I like the clear ones in certain spots so I can see what they’re holding like in the refrigerator and under the sink. And I use the ones without the sides for my oil and vinegar jars and also my spices. I’m tempted every time I see a lazy Susan to just think about what else I could use one for. I’m gonna link to these packs that I have bought on Amazon where they come with two different sizes together of both the clear and the non skid ones that I use. So let me know if you also share this passion about lazy seasons before we get into today’s caregiver spotlight episode. I want to first to shine a light on our episode, sponsor my data diary. If you were contacted in an emergency, would you be scrambling to find or get the information you need happy healthy caregivers partner. My data diary can help you. Their affordable digital family information management software gives you one place for everything. This easy to use solution is your family’s vault for all the essential documents that you’re going to need at your fingertips and that you might need to share with others on your care team. My data diary plus stores all your family’s basic personal legal and health information for every stage of life. And the tool captures detailed information such as your list of passwords, instructions to get into the parent’s house titles to cars, important contact numbers and information to help you celebrate a life. Good news too. You can receive 210% off the $220 time price per household by visiting my data diary dot com and using the discount code. Happy Healthy. Let’s meet today’s caregiver in the spotlight. Lynn Abba Johnson. Lynn. Abba Johnson understands the typhoon of emotions and responsibilities that come with caring for a loved one for over six years. Lynn was the primary caregiver for her mom. Lynn says she discovered how to blossom through and after caregiving rather than let it drown her. Now, she helps other family caregivers by giving them the emotional and logistical support they need. In this episode, Lynn and I chat about grief relief, matriarchy, expectations, unexpected respite and online journals to help streamline communication surrounding a health journey. Enjoy the show. Hi Lynn. Welcome to the Happy Healthy Caregiver podcast. Thank you, Elizabeth. I really appreciate that you’re having me here today. I’m excited to chat with you. Um Before we get kicked off here, we like to kind of start things off on a positive note with some stuff that I’ve collected over the years that has spoken to me. And I’d love to get your, your thoughts on this Lynn, it says um and this is from the happy, healthy caregiver. Ja it says difficult roads often lead to beautiful destinations. So true. I love that. It’s not all bad, right? It’s not all bad. And um I think that’s part of our journey as caregivers to be more. I was just talking to my coach about this, you know, to be open to those lessons. And I think that the more kind of trauma and drama that happens in our world in our lives, the more we start to realize really what’s important and how to focus on the those morsels, those gems of beauty. Well said, well said, yes, I do think that the, the gems shine brighter when you’re kind of looking in the muck of things. They, they really shine, shine light. Well, speaking of shining, I know you had said to me initially that you were a deer in headlights about caregiving for your mom. I wanted you to just share a little bit about your caregiving story and what you meant by that deer in headlights. Yeah. Um, that it was kind of the first thing that I write about in the book which is there’s no way this could be happening. And you’re, you know, you’re in shock when you get a diagnosis. In my case, it was a diagnosis in other people’s cases, you know, and, and you know this because you’re also a caregiver. Um, it can be any, any sort of thing where you’re all, all of a sudden you’re thrust into this role of caregiver. And at the time in 210 I didn’t even know that was a thing. I didn’t know that there was such a like and now it’s almost like an industry. Right. The care economy and the caregiving industry and there’s so many more resources today. But back then I was a deer in the headlights. I had no idea what to do. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and how to prioritize what would be best for my mom. I mean, I knew my mom pretty well, you know, and I just didn’t know how to help her the best way possible, especially at the beginning. What was mom’s diagnosis? She had ovarian cancer, uh, stage three C, ovarian cancer. And it turned out she was a BRCA two, genetic carrier, you know, she carried that BRCA two gene. And it was interesting because with those statistics for any of your listeners who have dealt with this, uh, genetic mutation BRCA two, normally, if it’s going to what they call express, it’ll express in your mid forties as 80 per, 86%. I believe the statistic was 86% chance of breast cancer. By the time you’re 203 47 if you have that genetic mutation, ovarian cancer is a little bit less, but still a big percentage. Even men can develop like prostate cancer if they’re carrying that genetic mutation. So it was really fascinating because my mom, you know, led a really healthy lifestyle and everything. She was not diagnosed until she was 74. Hm. What you were working while you were caregiving and you said, you know, you were there dear in the headlights. You didn’t know that you were called a caregiver. But what systems and organizational tips would you share with a working caregiver who’s listening that you now now know about, well, that just saved my life being a systems and structures person and having my mom also be a systems and structures person. You know, I I often joke and say that we created a business. We built a business around her cancer diagnosis. So there were charts, there were lists and so many different tools and um I offer them in the book and on my website to other family caregivers who may want to tap into some of the organizational structures that we created to make the every day, day in and day out, minute by minute tasks a little bit easier to navigate because we were already in our heads and in our emotions and freaking out. And so one that was one of the first things that we did is we said, OK, what systems do we need to keep track of all of this, the information, the details, the doctor’s names, addresses, and phone numbers, the lab results, you know, all the tests, the surgeries. And so it really made it important for us to organize and systematize our existence. And that went on for, you know, the whole six years. So it was really valuable that we did that at the beginning and it seemed very natural and yes, I was working full time. So I was doing my job full time in Silicon Valley. And then I was also helping, you know, take care of my mom at home and that became like a full time job itself. So consequently, I wasn’t sleeping much. You do have to be organized. I call that um, like practical self-care frankly, because that is gonna give you peace of mind and it’s going to energize you when you know that you have some kind of reliable, repeatable scalable system. Um I’m an it person in my professional life and that’s, that’s what I did is try to help, you know, helped streamline what people were doing in their everyday jobs so that it could be um repeatable and, and reliable. So, so, so good. And then thank you for sharing all of those tips with people and those tools so that other people can have systems and some people aren’t systems and organized. It’s, it’s not, it’s not natural for them. Exactly. And that’s why I wrote the book. I really feel compelled to serve other family caregivers at, at whatever stage of the journey they’re on. I do a lot of public speaking and, you know, I have people come in who say they’re just at the beginning of their journey. And, you know, that encourages me because I know that, you know, if nothing else they can learn from my mistakes, yes, if they can be proactive about getting the information that is only going to help them, uh, it’s so much easier if you know, kind of what your tool base is and where your resources are and which ones you can, can tap into other than kind of keeping yourself organized. Were there other support resources and things that were helpful for to you? Yes. The one of the most important pieces, especially from the very beginning of this journey with my mom was communication. Now we had, I’m from a really big ethnic family. My mom has a huge family back in Michigan. We’re in California. And so everybody was also freaking out that my mom had a cancer diagnosis. And so they wanted to know every detail every minute of every day and there was no way that I was gonna be able to disseminate the kind of information that they wanted. So we heard about this website, which I know that you know about and I love it. I don’t know where we would have been without it. Um caring bridge dot org. And so that is the system that we put into place so that I did some journaling every single day and sometimes multiple times a day if it was a particularly big day of surgeries or tests or whatever and getting results and all of that stuff. And so I disseminated that information through the carrying bridge dot org website. And to this day, I’m in awe of that tool. Yeah, we, we definitely use that as well and I’ll link to that in the show notes. It’s free, it’s free. You know, sometimes you don’t want to put your whole life out there on Facebook and other channels and people can subscribe to your online journal, they can share pictures, um the comments that you’re thinking about them. Plus as a caregiver, it’s one less thing for you. Not even one, it’s multiple less things for you to do to record it once, like while it’s fresh in your head and put that out there and have people read it versus picking up the phone because we have our own emotional stuff to deal with. And when you’re talking to all these individuals and you can’t remember what you’ve said to someone else and then you’re kind of trying to, to, you know, be their therapist and their coach through this whole thing. Like it’s too much, it’s too much. And, you know, I mean, you and I are in similar industries and so, you know, it’s important to standardize, you know, functions that can help people and can also take some of the burden off of you as the caregiver. So when you’re trying to, you know, educate or inform people, those standards are are super important and I love that it’s social media agnostic. I love that nobody has to be on social media at all to be able to participate in the family system in that way, right? It’s not everybody wants to be on those channels. So it’s not everybody wants to. And also, you know, you have to think about the generations, right? We’re dealing with generations of, of people and relatives, family members who uh they, they’re not even on social media, but they could log into a website. In fact, uh you know, you mentioned carrying Bridge is free. And uh we had several family members and friends who donated because that’s how they exist on donations. And people were so grateful that they had that tool and where I was writing in the journal and, and also I was bringing some humor to the situation. You know, I was able to bring some lev levity. And I really think that that’s a big part of the communication piece is that finding the humor and finding the levity in very dire circumstances is a key for us as human beings to not only function every day but also to become more and more connected. It’s critical, I mean to, to not be isolated and to find that connection in, in, in various forms, the caring budget. Thank you for bringing up that, that they survive on donations. I know that we did um a big donation too after because it was as a great tool for us. I’m sure it gave you great notes and then the beginning of caregiving, I don’t know that you thought I’m gonna write a book about this, but you then had something that you could source from and as the care recipient, like it was really beneficial for, for those folks too to kind of hear what people were saying. Look at old pictures that were posted. So it’s really a win, win win tool for everybody involved. Frankly. It is. Yeah, nice. And this is not a sponsored carrying Bridge, but we just, we just share the Yeah, we share tips. Yeah, we share the tips that really have worked because caregivers are the experts on all the things that are related to caregiving. Uh You know, Lynn, I appreciate that you’re vulnerable and, and authentic about stuff. And you had shared too that you thought you were literally going to die after your mom passed. And yet you did find some relief in her passing. And I think this grief relief we call it is a very difficult emotion for family caregivers to vocalize. Tell us about some of that relief that grief relief that you experienced. Yeah. Um It’s a really important thing for us to talk about. I really love how you call it grief relief. I never even thought of that Elizabeth. So that’s really great grief relief for me was relieved for myself that I could kind of check that job, that career off my list and also relief for my mom that she was not going to have to feel like crap anymore. Right? Or feel like all of those roller coaster physical symptoms, emotions that I know my mom felt and it didn’t always express and never complained about. So the grief relief was I think many fold and I can only speak for myself when I say that I did feel guilty after she died because I felt relieved. Yeah, I mean, you, you, how did you process that though? Like what? Because I think that’s normal. We feel guilty about a lot of things and we’re, we feel shame about, about some of that. Um those, those emotions that come up, but that’s real. We’re human. That’s there is so much guilt and there’s so much shame. And another reason why I wrote the book, not just to share great resources that people can take and use, but also to express these things that a lot of us don’t like to talk about or we don’t exactly have the words for. And um so I did talk to other people. I went to grief counseling, which was amazing because we had hospice and talk about another service organization that’s just doing amazing things in our world. Um You know, they’re, I’m the oldest of five Children and all five of us were offered once a month hospice. Um Grief counseling for the first year after my mom died, I took advantage of it and I am so glad that I did because it did really help me process all of those feelings that kept coming up in me that, you know, what am I gonna do without my mom? Um I’m glad my mom’s not suffering anymore, but here I am now, I’m kind of suffering without her. And you know, so all of those things I was able to work through um in the grief counseling. So I highly highly recommend any chance any of your listeners can get to go through. Even if it’s much later. I think that the grief process continues throughout our entire lives. It’s like something that we are never finished with. It’s never really complete. Is it? No, no. I mean, people give that kind of one year mark and I know that, you know, oh, you’ve got, you’ve made it through the, all the holidays and the seasons and, and yet it is like some, it is a part of you that you’ve kind of, you just learn to kind of compartmentalize it and, and, and deal with it, you know, and it, it creeps up and you’re like, oh, wow, that’s, I’m thinking about that right now and I mean, stories and stuff will come to me long after my, my parents have been deceased for years. And then what gives them are those kind of fresh memories and there’s this sense of loss and grief with that. But it, I’m grateful in many ways for, for that too. And I appreciate you sharing grief the about the grief counseling and hospice. And we’ll link to a great recent episode I did with Barbara Carnes who was like, she dispels all the myths around hospice because I think that’s an underutilized tool um as well as grief counseling. I know that. So that was something I could have used through my employee assistance program. So even if you don’t have hospice, there might be something there that you can use for yourself and for other family members. Um But we grief because we love these people and, you know, we love them and we love them. Uh So it’s always gonna kind of be a part and I think the guilt is another, you know, another g word that we, we dread, but that that can be some healthy stuff too in, in a way. So it’s like really understanding where that guilt come from. And usually it is because we love these people, we love or we, we want, don’t want to disappoint people and so forth. But we, we do have to offer ourselves some grace because we can’t, we are only one person, we cannot do all these things and be everything at the same time. Um So thank you for normalizing and sharing about that. After your mom passed two, you talk about, you know, you’ve got your family and, and I am from a big family as well. Um And now we’re sib I’m a sibling support caregiver for my brother with my SIBS. And, but you reflected about the matriarchy and your family, family um expand on what you had learned about the matriarchy roles after caregiving because the, the I I wanted to say that to you is like, yes, caregiving ends. But there is this whole piece of the caregiving um stages after caregiving ends, that isn’t an important stage. So talk about the matriarchy and the end after caregiving ended, yes, thank you. I was fascinated with this because it was something that I didn’t give too much thought to until after my mother died. And I thought, OK, well, culturally, my culture and the paradigms I grew up with say that I’m the new matriarch. I’m the oldest of my mom’s five Children. I am a female. Um And I, all of those things in my head that said, what is a matriarch um came to the surface. And so, and there were things like, you know, leadership um being involved uh and almost to a fault, you know, you can be involved and then there’s controlling, uh you can be concerned and wanting to be of service. And then there’s the antithesis which is trying to be the savior for someone. And so these are all things that I work on to this day. And fortunately I have a really amazing coach and so, you know, we work on those things that I used to think were true and they’re not true for me anymore. So a couple of other examples are, you know, um just, well, I already mentioned kind of being involved in the day to day life of my siblings and their Children and I didn’t have Children of my own. So I have all of these nieces and nephews and so that whole matriarchy piece for me um ended up me being kind of a miserable failure at becoming the matriarch. Um It’s not by the standards of yesterday and kind of how I grew up, that’s not really what I want to embrace anymore. I think that um and this is my opinion only, I think that there may be some dysfunction in those old paradigms of matriarchy. And so that, you know, writing about it in this book actually spurred another book out of me, which is going to be a collaborative book um where I’m interviewing people from all different walks of life and cultures to discover what their experiences used to be about matriarchy and today, what are they? Because I think there’s also a big mash up of male, female, you know, all of the different identities that we hold as human beings. And so what I’m really fascinated by is and, and I’m gonna interview men as well. I’m really fascinated by that intersection of the, the old archetype of matriarch and what I’m developing as a new archetype of matriarch. So I think these conversations are gonna be really fascinating for sure. These conversations are going to be uh a little bit uncomfortable, perhaps, uh maybe a little controversial. I’ve already triggered some of my good friends by asking them uh men and women asking them about what their experience of matriarchy is and people are just going off. Interesting. I, you know, as you’re talking, like, i it’s not to be honest, it’s not something I’ve thought a lot about. Um however, I’m not the oldest daughter, I’m the middle child, like we’re set up kind of like the Brady bunch in my family. So three boys, girls, the oldest in my family is my brother and he is not a person that we all kind of gravitate for, for leadership and things. He’s not been very helpful during the caregiving years. Um And he did have some roles that he played. Uh my sister, however, is the next in line and I’m sure that what you’re talking about resonates a lot with her because um and she may be someone you want to talk to because she was the last caregiver for my mom. And, you know, had some of the, the hardest years when mom was bedridden for two years and had to deal with kind of all that. But being the oldest female in our family, like she’s 11 years older than me. So she was kind of my cool mom. I used to call her that my cool mom growing up because I wouldn’t go to ask my mom about these things, but I’m gonna come to Susie and talk to her about that and Annie, my little sister would as well. And so she really had a big hand in like shaping who we are. Then we kind of caught up to each other and we had our kids about the same age. You know, she had married, had them older. I had mine maybe on a little bit of the younger side. So we had this cool experience of being moms together. But after mom, my parents had passed, she decided to, I think there was this pressure, a little bit of, she had lived in my parents’ home up in Michigan and, you know, we were, I live in Georgia. We’re kind of all spread out. Couldn’t, couldn’t um you know, have her uh couldn’t help with a lot of that. So she bought the house, but I’m sure that that fell to her. I, I know that she feels this pressure and we’ve talked about it. You know, I’m like, you change this house, like change it, do what you need to do. Don’t feel like you even need to stay here like she feels like I know this pressure of like keeping this legacy going of this beautiful place that we all enjoyed the lake. But I try to reassure her and say yes, we will miss this place if this is, you know, not in the cards for you to keep it, but we can rent something and, you know, make memory somewhere. But it’s, it’s, I, I’m sure she’s got a lot of that stuff tied up in that pressure for the holidays. I’m thinking about, you know, that and keeping that kind of that going and like the extended family. It’s like, oh jeez. So it’s a lot, you know, the nurturing and the keeping that going. Yeah. And it’s also the mechanics of the family, right? Like you’re like, you’re alluding to, it’s the mechanics. Like, where do we go for holidays? Where do we gather for weddings, funerals? You know, it’s, it’s a lot of times and in our case for my mom, she retired from Michigan and moved to California and then she um ended up living within, you know, 15 minutes of four of the five of us. And so, and she lived right around the corner from where all of the kids, my six nieces and nephews went to school. So that’s where they went after school. They walked to her house, she sliced up oranges for them to have snacks after school. And you know, it was all of that kind of logistical natural gathering that we do as families. And then when the apple cart gets upset, right? Somebody dies, who was that critical person in the family? Then, you know, really, it it can cause some chaos, right? And cause yes, more shame, more guilt, more wondering if I’m doing the right thing. Um More kind of introspection. And you, you know, for me, it’s been this whole leadership journey and transformational journey through the caregiving and the grief process. And now really talking about it a lot more in ways that I never even thought about it or talked about it before, like you said, didn’t, you know, depending on your birth order. Yeah, you’re not really think about some of these things. No, although I’m thinking about it more after I’m talking to you. Like, I’m even thinking like, I’m the matriarch. I role in Atlanta. Like I, you know, it’s just brothers down here. So who hosts all the holidays, who does all that is me and I’ll tell you I’m not a fabulous cook. So, like I’ve, you know, I’ve had to kind of set boundaries and be like, look, you guys just bring something or, um, we’re gonna just, I, I, one of my phrases is like, they’ll eat whatever you put in front of them. So, like, I just don’t, I watched my mom kind of kill herself in the kitchen growing up and I was like, no, I don’t want to do that. Um, but there have been times too where it’s like, I don’t want to host that this year. Let’s plan a trip. Let’s just get away from here. So that people can figure out for themselves like what they’re gonna do for these um occasions, but there is some like expectations for sure. There are expectations. And here’s the thing about expectations that I’ve discovered Elizabeth, they’re heavy. They, they have us carrying a lot of weight that is really not necessarily ours to carry. And so one of my mantras from my years, you know, in, in writing the book and now after the book is my mantra is, it’s not mine to carry. And do you know that that actually manifested itself in my physical body? Like, oh, I’m sure I’m like, you know, I was carrying all this weight and, and, you know, five years ago, I was literally carrying £60 of extra weight compared to where I am now. So, you know, working through some of these things metaphysically also affects us physically in all the ways like, yeah, you’re you hunched up your shoulders. You know, I, I had serious acne I was, you know, definitely have lots of health things going on. I think the point is like, listen, there are my sister is also like much more of a nurturing person like she loves to cook and take care of people and all that. I’m a better cheerleader for family caregivers than I am a hands on caregiver. Like I will admit that all day long and it, and we need, you know, we need different roles and, and all of it um but there are some people, you know who, like some of, and we’re not saying they’re bad to do these things. I’m just saying like, let’s, let’s challenge the expectation a little bit. And I think that’s what you’re saying, Lynn too. It’s like, really look at it and say like, is this a role of responsibility um or expectation that I want to take on or can we adjust it? So it meets my needs a little bit better or can we delegate it? And maybe I take something that is more of an interest to me. Like, let’s have those conversations. Exactly. Right. You know, I, I write about that in the book too about how my little sister Nicole is so touchy feely. You know, she’s a, she was always the one holding my mom’s hand and hugging my mom and she even gave my mom massages a few times a week. I would never be doing that. Like you wouldn’t catch me massaging anyone touching anyone like that intimately. And I was more of, I guess what I would define it. I, I just thought of this recently too is I was more of my mom’s business partner. Like I was more the pragmatic like her, you know, like she was my first mentor as an entrepreneur. She was the first business woman I ever knew. And so she taught me these skills and then I carried them into my later life. And I still carried them into my life today as an entrepreneur. And I was not that touchy feeling and, you know, I, I just couldn’t. And that’s just not my personality. And so it was great that we all kind of, like you said, we understand our roles, we understand our gifts, our talents, our skills and who understands them better than a mother. My mother understood all five of our skill sets. And so we kind of let her say, OK, you’re doing this, you’re doing this, you’re doing this and that’s what we did and that’s how also we organized our systems and structures. Yeah, to have the conversations about, I think that’s where the friction happens is when you don’t kind of uh talk about it. And there are some um I can share a link to, to some of the family and caregiving responsibility worksheets that might be good for folks who are just kind of feeling they’re frustrated, resentful. And I’m, we’re here to tell you you’re gonna get the same thing you’re gonna get unless something kind of disrupts the Apple cart to your point. And, and that is to have these courageous conversations and say, I know we were doing it this way for a while, but this isn’t working for me. So can we kind of come to the table, put our heads together and find something that’s gonna be successful for all of us that are involved? Yeah. 100%. 100%. Yes. It doesn’t get better just by keeping, keeping up with it and, and saying, oh my gosh, it’s, this is life. 00, well. 00 me, oh my. Oh, well, like, no, no. And I love that it doesn’t work to compartmentalize either. That’s such a, it’s such a male trait, like compartmentalizing, like shutting off your emotions and just like going through it. Well, I did that. I, I, I did that to the detriment of my nervous system, right? I compartmentalized to the detriment of my own physical health and my own mental health. And so that doesn’t work either. And so I love what you’re saying about, you know, having these hard conversations and bringing up when things change, acknowledge it and let’s talk about it and not everybody’s, you know, not everybody’s here for that, but not everybody’s here and, and people aren’t gonna change. Like, you know, one of my favorite words is consistent like they, people are consistent like my older brother, I love him. He is my brother. This is not a strength as helping out with other family members. He is in his own world doing his things. And um yeah, you know, did we enable it? Like sometimes I look back and I’m like, did we enable my brother to kind of like allow him to kind of check out and, and not be a part of it, but it was, it was maybe. Um but in some ways it was just easier. He was just like, you know, any time we kind of tried to force it upon him, everything was so much more miserable and painful that we were like, just go just, you know, so finally, I think there does have to be this part in family dynamic sometimes where you’re just going to accept that this is who this person is and they are consistent and OK, move on. Let’s find the other people who are willing to kind of pitch in and, and make this work. I, I, yes, is it? You know, could I get mad about it? Like, yes, he’s the oldest. He should totally like, be helping and taking the reins. I could, but that’s not gonna help anything. Yes, that acceptance and also what I’ve been learning over the years is trust, trusting myself more and trusting others, you know, um trusting that others are adults. They’re whole adults. Um One of my favorite things that I got from a workshop that I did many, many years ago was treating people as if they’re whole perfect and complete, like nothing to fix, nothing to do nothing to teach them and accept them where they are, meet them where they are and trust your own instincts and your own sensibilities. And I think that has really helped me over the years to heal from some of those shoulds. Right. Yes. And get rid of those, like dispel that word from my vocabulary. Because I’m me, I’m on my own leadership journey. Nobody else is on this journey, nobody else. And so there’s nothing to compare it to. And that’s another thing that I’ve learned is stop with the comparisons because there’s always going to be someone that’s doing better than you or worse than you. Like. It’s pointless. And it’s actually dangerous for us to compare ourselves to anyone else because we are on our own journeys. We need to stay centered right here. That’s right. That’s right. You know, I, and when we talk about the family stuff, it’s like the, there, if I’m being honest again, like the, I was in some ways I was jealous of my older brother because I was like, wow, that would be nice to just kind of turn your humanity off and, and walk away. Gosh, I wish I could do that, but it’s not part of my DNA. Um And so then it was like, ok, but what could I do to kind of claw myself my time for myself back so that I could get to that, that place. I wanted to be where I didn’t feel those negative emotions so much as anger and resentment. Um And so you’re kind of constantly like tweaking things to kind of get to that sustainable place where it’s like, ok, this is still a lot and I wouldn’t want this if it was a totally an ask of mine. But we put some, we we’ve got a good team here and I think that’s kind of where my family got to be where we look back. And we’re like, OK, that was, that sucks. But we, we did pretty good. We came out, OK. You know. Yeah, you bring, you bring up a beautiful, beautiful point, Elizabeth. And that is that um and my sister Nicole and I are realizing this more and more as we get older that there are, there’s the family that we were born into. And then there’s also the family that we choose. I call it family frily family, like friends and family. And so these are, you know, other brothers and sisters that we’ve adopted, right? That we love and that love us us and that see us and they are able to see us and meet us where we are. And one of the most beautiful things that happened during that six years of the cancer roller coaster with my mom is that those people surfaced for us, those family members surfaced. And so they gave us a bit of respite and I didn’t even know respite was a thing until pretty recently I saw a bunch of articles about it and I love that and we did it instinctively. So once we figured out kind of the lay of the land for how to care for my mom and we had all these systems and structures in place, then we were able to plug in some of the friends who were not related to my mom and some of them didn’t even know her that well, but they sure got to know her over those years. And today, one of the biggest gifts for me is getting together with those friends who helped us with my mom and I, I could cry every time I see them and I think about them, I’m just so grateful that we cultivated those friendships that became like family members. So there’s a lot to be said for that. Yes, it’s, it, the, the two things needed to happen though, Lynn one is that they had to kind of present themselves, but then you all had to be able to kind of bring them into a very vulnerable situation for everybody. And there’s two things need to be true in that situation in order for your care team to kind of expand. Um And that’s the importance of kind of working with coaches and things like that to make that happen. Well, we’ve alluded to your book and it’s called out of Love, a daughter’s journey with her mom to the end. Yeah, let’s see it. Um There we go. And, but tell us about it. I know you talked about your, the tsunami of emotions, the stigma of grief. But what, what are, what are you hoping that people get out of your book? My book is really a conversation starter. First and foremost, it used to be, oh, I’m gonna help other family caregivers. No, this is pure and simple. A conversation starter because just like you and I have had this pretty, you know, uh, authentic and I hate to use that word because it’s such a buzzword now. But, you know, we’ve gone, we’ve gone a little below the surface. Yeah, we’re in the trenches. Yeah. That’s when I came back and we’re like, yeah, I know. That’s, and that’s where I think the value is for us as human beings to, to get more connected, to stay more connected to be in community together. Um I’ve been watching you for a while. I love the work that you are up to and I know all necessary like our world needs each of us. You know, I there’s a saying that I have, it takes each of us to make a difference for all of us. And I think that if we’re willing to have these conversations and through my book, you know, the conversation starters and to get into those things that a lot of other family caregivers are maybe a little bit shy or nervous to talk about. You know, we can help bring people’s voices out. And I think the more voices that exist in our world, the more our world can heal, ultimately, I, you know, that’s kind of my bigger vision is that our world could use that medicine of connection, community and free of judgment connection, I think, yeah, that vulnerability that we can all bring to these experiences because we’re all going to go through it statistically, you know, the statistics way better than I do. Statistically, we’re all going to be thrust into roles that we never prepared for or trained for. Yeah, it’s only grow growing as we live longer and medications and all of that. Thank you. Also, if people wanna check out your booklet, I’m gonna link in the show notes to the book and I’m also gonna link to the free chapter that you offer from the book so that people can take advantage of that. So, speaking of books, um that we’re gonna switch to the self care portion of the show because I um, wrote a book about that as well. Mine is a prompted journal just for you to say daily self-care journal. And um, we have a lightning round that we’re gonna, we’re gonna go through here together Lynn. So let’s see. First prompt I have for you is a fun one. Let’s say, what would you choose for your karaoke song? I will survive by Gloria Gaynor. Yeah, you will and you did for sure. Um, today you are grateful for other family caregivers who understand me, describe the ingredients and your favorite salad. Oh my gosh, romaine lettuce, uh red cabbage, red bell pepper, um, avocado and lots of lemony salad dressing that I make of my own with lemon and extra virgin olive oil. I love that. I’m big in the lemons lately too. Um OK. Share a goal that you’re currently working on and why it’s important to you. Yeah. So I’m currently working on the new book um Redefining Matriarchy and I’m really excited about it because it’s, it’s more than my voice. Now. It’s going to be multiple, multiple voices and it’ll probably be out sometime next year. Um because I just wrote a chapter for another collaborative book which is coming out in February. So lots of fun stuff happening and um and things that really tie into my purpose, you know, and make it more meaningful and valuable. I think it’s gonna be great. I’ve not seen anything like it. So you’ll have to let me know when it’s out because I’d love to check it out. Um Last question, who is one person you could thank for being there when you needed it. The most, my sister, Nicole hands down, she’s my ride or die. She’s my baby sister. And uh yeah, I could cry just thinking about how much she has meant to me in my life. And I, yeah, it’s been really an amazing journey with her and sisters are. Um We, we have a hashtag sister power. I don’t know if you’ve got a certain, but that was like, and we had this whole like move that we do when I’m with my two sisters, we put our fists together, sister power. And it’s just like, you know, Yeah. You feel like you have your, your capon but sisters are special people and if you don’t have a sister, find someone who’s like a sister. Yes. Uh, because someone else is searching for a sister too. That’s exactly right. Nicole and I both have other sisters besides ourselves that are not even blood related. So, super important. What you just said? Yes, I have my little groups. I’m lucky I would say I have three. Like I have my neighborhood book club that we’ve been meeting for over a decade and we know all the ins and outs of each other’s life. And then I have my caregiving friends that we meet to do respite retreats and so forth. So um I’m lucky, but that is something that’s been intentional. So you, you know, if you’re feeling like you’re lonely and you’re isolated like that’s um and one of the ways you might want to do that is a caregiver retreat. And so I’ll link to the, there are some retreats coming up at the end of the year with brutally beautiful. So I’ll link to that in the um those those are powerful like you leave as strangers and you come out with a lifeline of people. Um I forgot you mentioned the tip to me another self-care tip before we wrap up, which was that um you had a funny story for us in a practical self-care tip about death certificates. This like, oh my gosh. Well, the, the big, you know, my mom wanted to, to, she was the boss. And so she said when I was going to meet at the funeral home, you know, she wanted to be cremated and she was still alive. But I was going down to the funeral home and having meetings and I’m, uh, I’m like, ok, mom, uh, we need this, this, this and this and she goes, make sure you get 20 death certificates. And I’m like, really? Because I was only gonna order 10, you know, they cost money and she’s like, no order 20 you’re gonna need them. You’re gonna need to send originals to everybody and just get more than you think you need. And I said, OK, mom, well, we only ended up probably not even using 10, but she was the boss. She wanted you to have peace of mind. Very sweet. Um I love that. Well, how do people, you know, is there anything else that you wanted to mention? And how do people continue to stay in touch with you? Then we’ll, we’ll connect in the show notes to your links. But what’s the best way to do that? I have so much gratitude for you. So thank you. Um I’m very excited about what’s ahead because of the community that you’re building and that I’m a part of that we’re building. Yes. Uh I really, really think that it’s valuable stuff and so I would just encourage people you can visit my website Linna Johnson book dot com there. You’ll find all of the resources. I’ve started up a very small but literally mighty networks, mighty uh caregiving community there, which is again, social media agnostic. And uh I’d love to develop that further. So, um there’s lots going on and in fact, you mentioned brutally beautiful blog. I found her through you and now I’m sharing her blog post and I love her. So, yes. So Heather will link to her stuff, Heather. Um Zai is a dear friend of mine. Um and she’s very, she puts it all out there. It’s raw and she loves to share about the, you know that there is beautiful and the brutal she gets it. She gets the the paradox and the paradox is what I’m learning and really uh embracing myself more and more. So, thank you again for having me, Elizabeth. Thank you. It’s been a joy chatting with you today. Can take care. You too. Thanks for joining us today on the Happy Healthy caregiver podcast on the whole care network. As always show notes that a company today’s episode can be found on my website happy healthy caregiver dot com. Just look under the podcast menu for today’s episode image and that will take you to the page with the links and information we spoke about today. You’ll also find other resources on the website along with links to purchase the just for you daily self care journal. When you purchase from my website, you’ll get a signed copy and for a limited time free shipping. If you’ve enjoyed what you heard today, consider subscribing to the show on your podcast platform. It really helps other family caregivers find the podcast and you’ll automatically receive our biweekly shows in your podcast listening queue. Maybe while you’re subscribing, consider leaving a five star rating and review or just simply talk it up on your social channels. Let’s stay connected. I’m on Instagram and Facebook as happy healthy caregiver. And until we meet again, please take care of you. 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